I want a German car.

"Dsscats" (dsscats) 01/12/2014 at 18:08 • Filed to: None

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So my question/discussion is this:

What are the most reliable BMW's/Mercedes'/Audi's?

There is no year limit, but preferably one that you can get cheap, like a 400E, E36 or Audi Coupe GT.

Let the arguing....BEGIN!!!!!

Have a joke edited E30 M3 engine for your trouble.

Tom McParland > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:11

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As for recent BMWs my understanding is that the N/A N52 I6 is pretty trouble free especially compared to the N54 and N55 turbo mills.

Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:13

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From what I heard, the order is Audi/BMW/Mercedes from most reliable to least reliable. And then engine wise best is naturally aspirated.

From what I've heard.

BKRM3 > Tom McParland 01/12/2014 at 18:15

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Truth. And don't forget the stellar S65 =)

StoneCold > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:18

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I had much luck with my pre-variable timing M60 in my 740iL.

Dsscats > StoneCold 01/12/2014 at 18:21

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Tell me more about it. E38? I reeeeeeaaaaallly want one.

stuttgartobsessed > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:23

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Mercedes W123 240/300 d/td

StoneCold > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:26

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From what I understand, the timing chain guides and the water pump are the most worrisome, usually around 100,000-130,000 miles. But even then, it's not that difficult to work on from what I've read. In the Hanyes and Chilton's guides, everything is like 3-5 steps less than the comparable I6 because everything isn't too hard to get to. What part of the country are you in?

Edit: to answer your question, yes, a 1995 E38

twinturbobmw > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:34

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Stay away from N54s. That's all I have to say.

M54B30 > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:34

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E39s were relatively bulletproof except for shitty cooling systems. Post facelift VANOS engines are safe, especially the M54 series. The 4.4 V8 has valley pan gasket issues, but the 2.5 and 3.0 I6s are a dream. E46/39/38 and older are the safest bet. I've heard horror stories of cars with VANOS when it was a new technology still.

Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 18:42

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If you want to travel across Africa you'll want a Land Cruiser. But if you want to actually get there, you'll want 80's Mercedes Diesel.

*Jeremy Clarkson.

Dsscats > StoneCold 01/12/2014 at 18:42

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Im in so cal. How has it been other than the engine?

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna 01/12/2014 at 18:57

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We've had 2 porches and then 2 BMWs, same mechanic. Anytime I bitch about work the cars need done, he gives me an example of a mercedes that is 2x as bad.

duurtlang > stuttgartobsessed 01/12/2014 at 19:01

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W124 is bulletproof too, at least the lower tier engines are. The W201 as well.

Desu-San-Desu > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 19:01

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Ok first: what is your budget and preferences so far as drive wheels, seating, and usage?

My 1991 Audi 80Q has close to 250,000 miles on it and running quite smoothly now (turns out it was out of commission for a while due to bad gas fouling out the old fuel pump and filter). Nearly all of my reliability woes have been due to the Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection system, rubber bits (hoses, bushings, and mounts) being old, and minor electrical niggles (voltage regular in the gauge, for example). Mechanically? The damn thing is a tank. The thing is, given preventative maintenance and aftermarket upgrades as repairs, nearly anything can be reliable. Take my car for example:

The fuel injection system, being mechanical, is an issue, but there are multiple different kits and methods for converting the engine to proper EFI, if you want to spend the money to make said conversion. The improves tunability, reliability, usable power, and fuel mileage. It's about a $1,000 job, but in my mind it's totally worth it, as a component-by-component repair job on the existing system can run well past that after about 4 components (fuel pressure differential regular by itself is over $400. Luckily those rarely fail.).

The rubber bits being old is an expected issue that comes with age. Just plan on replacing/upgrading them as you go whenever you're going to be doing anything where you have access to them.

Electrical issues are pretty much an inherent known problem with almost all German cars- the newer the car, the more expensive they are to fix. With my car, a voltage regulator is about $90, which isn't bad. A cruise control stalk and control unit? About $140, again, not too bad. The individual electronics are rarely expensive, but you'll probably have a large enough amount of individual repairs that the total cost will offset the lower price per component. This is just a German thing. My advice? Learn to wire or have a friend who is good with wiring and electronics. Re-loom what you can and upgrade the wiring whenever possible.

So far as working on it, the major things are shockingly easy to work on. CV axles? No problem. Suspension and steering assemblies? Cake. Fuel pump and filter? Right in front of the rear wheel, in plain sight. Diff mounts and transmission mounts? 20 minutes per pair. Timing belt change? 3 hours, without even needing to jack the car up- same with changing the oil (no jack needed). Obviously spark plugs and wires are a cinch. But it's the little things that will aggravate you. Wanna change the air filter in an I5 Audi with the original CIS fuel injection system? Be prepared to loosen a bunch of hoses and move that entire injection assembly so you can get to the air box, which is located behind the headlight and under the injection system in a seal box. Wanna change the front pads? No problem! Rear pads, though? The calipers are screw-type, so I hope you have a tool for that. Wanna adjust the handbrake? Get ready to jack the car up, as you'll need to get underneath the car where the handbrake is.

Again, it's a trade-off. Electronics are a pain, but the mechanicals are sound. Major projects take no time at all, but the little things will take an afternoon.

As for recommendations, I can't speak on behalf of BMW, Mercedes, or newer Audis. As far as the older Audi's go? I'd avoid the Coupe GT. Not because of the looks, as those are great. Nor because of reliability, as the non-turbo versions have the same overall drivetrain as my car and the 90Q. No, I recommend against them because of weight. In one of the biggest mysteries of all time, the Coupe actually weighs almost 200lbs more than the sedan and the chassis is a floppy noodle in comparison to the B3 sedan chassis. My car? Has a rear firewall instead of fold-down rear seats. Why? Because the fuel tank is location between the trunk and rear seats, above the rear differential. This rear firewall basically acts as a giant chassis brace for the rear, making the car incredibly stiff and going a long way towards reducing understeer. The couple? Has nothing but a big gaping chasm where that firewall would normally be, which reduces structural rigidity considerably. Also, because the gas tank on the coupe is under the car, it's not nigh-upon immune to rusting like the sedans.

Also, 4 doors for when you decide to have a social life. Downside? Small trunk. Not Miata-small, but...you'll probably do well to invest in a roof rack if you tend tote a lot of bulkier items with the car.

As far as actual Audi's from that era, I'd go with the 80 or 90 quattros, as they were essentially Audi's equivalent to the E30 of the time. The smallest, lightest weight, and most nimble of the lineup. The 100's, 200's, 4000's, 5000's, etc. all had more power, but also weighed substantially more and with enough extra weight that the handling was compromised considerably. Also, they generally had more complex engines and transmissions, resulting in more potential for failures. Above all else, I've avoid turbocharged engines if you want reliability. German cars are great at taking boost reliably....just not from the factory. If you want reliable boosted power, buy a naturally aspirated car, convert to EFI fuel injection, port and polish the head, and boost it yourself. For high-mileage engines, strengthening the internals would be recommended.

In regards to 80 vs 90...that comes down to preference in regards to luxury and the engine. The 80 was the economy model, with less frills (still had heated seats, intermittent wipers, automatic down driver's window, headlight washers, an electronically lockable rear diff, and an indescribably awesome ABS off button) and came with either a 1.8L turbo 10v I5 engine or a 2.3l N/A 10v I5. The 1.8L turbo was not known for its reliability, lol.

The 90 was a bit more plush, with leather seats, a fancier gauge cluster, and a few other things. It also came with a 20v 2.3L I5 that put out about 20hp and 10lb-ft over the 10v. Both have a decent aftermarket and both are fairly bulletproof, but have their own niggles. The 10v has a knack for leaky valve cover gaskets (OEM only, though) and ticking lifters due to the valve guides getting a little warped over time, whereas the 20v was more known for getting inconsistent ignition timing and leaky cam seals. Again, aftermarket parts can fix these issues.

My personal thoughts: The B3 chassis was, in my opinion, the best chassis Audi ever put out, up until the newest batch of sports coupes. With a good set of tires and a little bit of driving skill, you will be shocked at how nimble they can be and at the total amount of grip they are capable of. They're great cars, with a limited but very effective aftermarket selection. They'll require lots of weekend fixer-upper maintenance, but that will dwindle over time as your replace old parts with better aftermarket parts and stay ahead of your preventative maintenance. They're also serious sleepers. As for 80 vs 90, that just comes down to preference. The 80's are more basic, but also more affordable and less likely to have been ragged on by previous owners- but! They are rare, especially rust-free versions. 90's are a bit more common, but have an increased price to match the increase in features and performance, as well as a higher chance of prior hoonage and rusting as a result.

All in all, I say it comes down to your budget. If you can find a good, smooth-running, rust-free example of either for under $3,500 and have a couple grand to spend on preventative maintenance (I really can't over-recommend the 034 Motorsports EFI conversion), they're awesome cars, with a ton of potential, and make great sleepers.

Desu-San-Desu > Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna 01/12/2014 at 19:02

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You are exactly right. German cars can be very reliable when boosted...just not when boosted from the factory, lol.

StoneCold > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 19:17

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I loved it, the only hiccup was the aftermarket Kenwood NAV/DVD/Radio that messed with little things that I lived with (like if the radio was on, the dash turn signal indicator wouldn't go on, even though the signals themselves worked fine.)

I loved having twice the luggage space than I ever needed, plus everyone wanted to get picked up in my car since the leg room was fantastic. Always comfy. The only fixes I had to do were on the suspension (my own fault since I bottomed-out the car once or twice...hard) and that was a 20 buck part plus 30 minutes of research and work. Engine warms up in no time, and stays warm for awhile, but less of a deal in SoCal :p . Everything feels SOLID and safe in a good way: doors, trunk, hood, panels, etc.

Gas Mileage was GREAT on the highway (25-28 mpg) but the suburban was only 13-15. I filled up with premium from Costco, so that cost as much as regular at any other station. The tank is huuuuge though (like 25 gallons).

If you're willing to work on them yourself and there are parts/junk cars available around you (there seem to be TONS of e39/e38s in Illinois), then it's a no-brainer :D

JasonStern911 > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 19:20

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What are the most reliable BMW's/Mercedes'/Audi's?

If you want reliability, those aren't really the manufacturers you should be looking at. But in general, the more mass produced the motor, the more likely it is to be reliable. For AUDI, this means stick to the turbo I4s over the twin-turbo V6s and V8s. For BMW, stick to the motors that are in the non-M 3-series versus the high-strung I6s, V8s, and V10s. The non-M Z3s and Z4s have the reputation of being the most reliable BMWs; however, this is skewed as the owners of these cars tend to put less miles on the cars than owners of more practical daily drivers do.

Mercedes reliability is different. Cars older than the early 90s tend to be mechanically reliable, but have electrical gremlins. The Daimler-Chrysler merger did the worst thing possible. Instead of bringing Mercedes luxury and build quality to Dodge, it brought Dodge's luxury and build quality to Mercedes. Thus, from a reliability standpoint, stay away from Mercedes from the late 90s/early 2000s. Build quality started getting better around 2004, but we're still talking about being better than Mercedes dark era - not on the reliability level of Honda/Toyota. If properly maintained, the AMGs tend to be more reliable than their non-AMG counterpart due to the motors being hand built and additional quality control checks. However, the AMGs also tend to be more abused - why make crazy power if you're never going to use it?

Jay Lauer > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 19:45

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I've owned an E46 330xi for about 4 months now, and what I've come to understand is this.

for 2000-newer: BMW>Audi>Mercedes in reliability.

Go back to the 80s and it's Mercedes>BMW>Audi, although I don't know much about 80s Audi's.

They just require much more attention than other cars do. Everybody should definitely own one German car in their time, but be wise on which it is.

Also, most all 80/90s German cars (E30s,W123s and such) are more reliable than their newer counterparts.

My vote is for an E30. E36s are too boring looking and the reliability isn't very good. But a good 80s Merc wouldn't be bad either.

Here's the real question. What car are you coming from?

signintokinjalol > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 20:40

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turbo diesel...

Dr Emilio Lizardo > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 21:02

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My CLK320 went 9 years and 110,000 miles with one major transmission problem that cost about $1000 to fix.
The wife's X3 has gone 8 years and 48,000 miles with no major problems.
The current S5 is less then a year old, so I can't comment on reliability yet.

In a Mini; let them mock me as My Mini Countryman is higher than you > Dsscats 01/12/2014 at 21:33

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Any Mini that's a JCW.